Normalizing Marginalized People In Your Fiction

Okay writers, let's talk about diversity and slice that pie in terms of marginalized groups. 

What is the difference between including diversity in your work and using your work as a platform to encourage understanding and empathy in regard to diversity? Is one better or worse for authors?

Rachel Burda Taylor: Hmm... For me, I don't know that diversity is something I set as any type of goal.

At the same time, I live in a place that is crazy diverse where it's normal to be surrounded by and be friends with a range of people from different backgrounds, lives, etc. (Visiting the nearest mall is about like going to an international airport. My WASP kids are the minority-by-numbers at their high school.) It would be weird to not include the same diversity in my books that I have in my daily life.

Josh Nealis: In novels, not always but often, I never mention skin color of a character. Also, I try not to create a character in comics specifically to be black or female etc, the charcter idea needs to be pure. Not pandering, but purposeful.

John Anthony Chihak Soltero: The difference would lie in the intent and the knowledge and experience one has on the subject, just like any other story or character. 

Chris Riker: If the aspect/trait/feature/preference is important to the plot, SHOW DON'T TELL. If it's not important to the plot, be satisfied with representation. Don't force it. Don't preach. Don't kill the lesbian just for the hell of it. Above all, remember to tell a story. I invite you to review my work and tell me if I handle things well. (Getting to Know People at the Rainbow Connection, Itsy Bitsy).

Jesse James Fain: David Weber once said when complemented for his female characters that his success in writing a woman without being one was "That's because I wrote a person, a character, that just so happened to be female."

I try my damnedest to do this with any character of any marginalized or oppressed group. My latest sold story has a mixed native hero with complex beliefs. He venerates the great spirits and the Norse gods. He is a child of his two cultures. Two cultures I myself have ancestry in and know academically and from being involved in ritual. I give the details you need, and let you fill the rest, because this is fiction, and it's my world, and my tale, and you were kind enough to share it.

Kay Iscah: The difference is intent. Which is better? Depends. If you want to feature a culture/disability or bring awareness to it, you have a higher responsibility to get the details right, but well done, those stories can be very engaging and meaningful.

I generally write stories removed from the context of Earth, so that gives me some freedom to think it about it more in terms of creating variety. What's jarring is taking current-day issues and trying to cut and paste them into a setting where they don't fit. But as long the issue or inclusion is organic to the story, it's fine. As a general rule low tech, remote villages should be more homogenous, and high tech, urban settings are more natural to blended populations. But diversity isn't limited to skin tone (or species if you're writing sci-fi/fantasy). Diversity is personalities and perspectives, heights, talents, etc. etc. You should write different characters with distinct personalities and goals.

Brian K Morris: I've just dabbled in what I call "pulp with a social conscience." Until now, I've managed to write some really strong female characters, as opposed to "romantic interest/hostage." But I've not built up the moxie to go further until a year ago.

Building diversity is a good thing. In the introduction of ANY character, the reader should be able to UNDERSTAND them and why they do what they do.

Sean Taylor: I've actually done several posts on this blog about this, and my POV on it is constantly evolving. I still believe we can force diversity into our writing without it coming out well, forced, and without hurting the stories themselves. However, I do not feel that we can intentionally choose themes that offer us the opportunities to include a more diverse cast or create situations and settings when and where a more diverse cast makes sense without having to be forced like a triangle block into a circle hole. And I am embracing that aesthetic more and more in my writing. That way, the intentionality is there, but it still doesn't come across, at least to me, as trying to write "message fiction." But honestly, our history as writers is filled with what some folks derogatorily call message fiction nowadays. Look no further than the poetry and stories of Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston, Kate Chopin, Oscar Wilde, Harper Lee, and Khaled Hosseini. Sadly, when most folks I hear bag on "message fiction" is not because the fiction is bad, but because they don't agree with the message. Case in point: The Narnia books are straight-up message fiction, but whether you agree with the message or not, the stories still hold up as fun adventure yarns for children and children at heart. 

What have you done up to this point in your fiction to put a focus on the marginalized and to build intentional diversity into your stories?

Rachel Burda Taylor: I do try to reflect the actual populations of the places I write about. So if a place (talking about you Gander, Newfoundland) is primarily WASPs, it's important to me to reflect that while also having the visiting protag have a more diverse friend group that reflects the population of her hometown.

TJ Keitt: You need to avoid tokenization, as well as tropes that are insulting and bigoted (e.g. the "noble savage" and "magic negro"). There are two ways to do this:

1) Tell a story that only your character from the marginalized community could lead. I think this is what made the first Black Panther movie, for example, so interesting. If you inserted any other Marvel hero into that story, it would not have made sense. It's also why I think the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies worked so well (they truly were stories about a teenager) and why I thought the first Wonder Woman missed the mark (aside from a couple of scenes, any DC hero who was overpowered and long-lived could have helmed that story). The challenge with this is you have to have a deep understanding of the character and story to pull that off, or else it becomes cringe.

2) Allow the marginalized character to exist normally in your broader world. Black, Hispanic, Gay, Trans, etc. are just ordinary people who interact with other people from different communities on a daily basis. Those interactions can include conversations about their identities, but most often, people are just interacting and discussing regular stuff. It's actually why characters like War Machine and Falcon work in the MCU: Yes, they're Black Americans, but they're also just regular (in the context of this world) people who are working through extraordinary circumstances. They don't have to be "credits" to their community; they just have to be represented as fully realized humans and not tokens or tropes.

Sean Taylor: I have also written stories with a theme, not just a plot. Those themes were ideas that were important to me at the time of the writing. My first published story was about the change in the heart of a small-town sheriff when he has to choose between letting his town give vigilante justice to a black kid accused on flimsy proof or to protect the kid until he can actually have a fair trial. I guess the story was still strong enough to make the message worth telling because it won an Award judged by the late Judith Ortiz Cofer. Even in my Pulp work, Bobby Nash and I were intentional when we set Rick Ruby, a white P.I., in an almost black world. Not only did it give up better opportunities to tell good stories with a variety of diverse characters, but it also allowed us to use even classic Pulp tropes to tell stories that mattered beyond mere punching and shooting tales. 

Jesse James Fain: I can only write what I know and understand. So I make no specific efforts to represent anyone I have not witnessed, and that I cannot flush out to be A PERSON and a Character with a role to fill.

This only applies to me, and my approach, but In fiction I am no one's champion. I am a storyteller weaving threads of human themes, themes that everyone from Vladivostok to Lisbon and Patagonia to the Arctic would understand if they read English.

Message fiction irritates me heavily. I don't want real-life politics or struggle in my fantastic escape. I champion my beliefs all day by example and debate. I don't need to thinly veil them in someone's good time. If the quiet part is noble, you will say it out loud. That goes for my own beliefs as well.

Every writer shows ideals, that's part of the human experience and thinking, but the difference between "this is how I think and it bleeds in a little." And "HEY GUYS THIS IS THE POINT, SEE! SEE! SEE ME SUPPORTING THE THING." IS normally sparkly clear, and the story normally sucks in the latter example.

John Anthony Chihak Soltero: I have done a lot. I don't know what to point out or suggest. I have mainly female characters of various racial backgrounds in my comic books. I attempt to make them pointed and have purpose instead of just being women. 

Connor Alexander: Years back, I had a Sikh character in a book I was writing (While I'm not religious, I find Sikhism fascinating). I was mostly using the internet and not feeling great about the character. Then, I was at a pizza place and realized the owner and his family were Sikhs. I asked the owner if I could buy him lunch and ask him about his faith. He agreed and we sat over lunch for hours. He was so generous with his beliefs and perspectives. Really made the character come to life.

Carl Moore: I let the geography do it naturally -- my horror novel that took place in New York City would be silly if it didn't have a diverse cast of characters.

Brian K Morris: As seen above, I've not done a lot until The Terrors from last year. I did my research on African-American communities during World War II and talked with a number of my Black friends in the hopes that I got it right.

Kay Iscah: Unfortunately my best stories for showcasing diversity aren't published yet (which frustrates me, but it's a long story). Seventh Night is vaguely medieval, so the conflict is more class diversity than racial or cultural diversity. You see a bit more of the broader world in the Before the Fairytale set, but not at a level I would brag about. I did have a subplot about the young sorceress using magic to treat someone with a harelip (cleft lip/cleft palate) and promoted Operation Smile when I first released those chapters. I have several back-burner projects that are more deliberate with racial diversity, particularly in protagonists... I don't think every story needs to hit every check box, but I do see the value in diverse stories, settings, and characters. Hoping to live long enough that my catalog of work will show a better variety. I didn't worry about Seventh Night being a bit Eurocentric because other stories I had in the works explored other cultures or more naturally diverse settings, but I honestly thought those would be out long before now.

Do you plan to ramp that up or back off or make any other changes to the way you include the marginalized in your work based on recent events?

Ef Deal: In my recent book, Aeros & Heroes, tout Paris is at the chateau, including the infamous Count Custine, an open homosexual in France, where it wasn't illegal. The king states, "It's an offense against God. Scripture is clear." Jacqueline says, "Scripture is rarely clear." She then expounds, for the sake of her 'salon' audience, on what is natural. She challenges the king to heal a guest's crippled leg, or turn water into wine, or walk across her pond. Yet we're all commanded to be imitators of the Christ, so why can't he do it? She then points out that Scripture is very clear on one point: The punishment for adultery (of which the king is notoriously guilty) is death. The king quickly shuts up.

Later, her lady's maid, a young teen, confesses that she's a lesbian, and the local priest has told her it's a sin. Jacqueline says, “I can’t tell you what sin is for you, Gaudin. If the curé says it’s a sin, I’m sure he will be happy to hear your confession. At the least, you’ll do penance. At the worst, you’ll be looked down upon by everyone except those who truly love you. If I could, I’d send you away to school to learn Greek and Hebrew properly. Then you could read the Holy Scripture for yourself, study it, and wrestle with God as Jacob did, and as I have done, to learn what God wants from you. Confess yourself to God. I’ve found God to be far more forgiving than the church.”

John Anthony Chihak Soltero: I am changing how I create these stories as I feel someone with better experience should share that voice. I will be concentrating my efforts on what I know, which is being Latino, having mental illness and being queer. I don't know that I am qualified to give a voice to other minorities. 

Jesse James Fain: I'm writing people. People who may be of any race, creed, or color, but I'm not banging on mental doors for anyone, not even my own groups. I'm telling tales about heroes and villains and badasses that come from where they come from, and I believe that's the best way to do them justice in speculative fiction.

Shay Vetter: I'm struggling with this right now. The books I have out are middle grades with a diverse cast, including LGBTQIA+ characters. The new administration wants to call those characters porn, even though there is absolutely nothing spicy in my books. Certain billionaires who own book platforms support the new administration. Do I pull them off those platforms? What about the cozy SF series I'm writing for adults?

I'm nonbinary and bisexual. What I write is reflective of who I am and the kind of world I want to see. It's not just about normalizing marginal groups but making a world where people like me can live to their fullest. I don't believe my existence takes away from someone else. If anything, I think we'll all be richer through diversity. I think the belief that I infringe on someone else just by existing is propaganda by people who need someone to blame so their followers will focus on that and not on the fact that their leaders are actual ones who want to infringe on them.

I'm pretty upset at the world right now.

Brian K Morris: When I released The Terrors, one person accused me of "race swapping" and equating it to lazy writing (which would have been to just stick with a white cast). Two minutes later, I got a 2-star rating on Amazon. While I got some amazing reviews for the book, the comments on FB were all about their disappointment in seeing someone introduce a strong, Black set of characters. (For the record, when I checked out the accounts, they were all middle-aged white guys who probably weren't even around when the characters MY cast were based on were in print). And I am petty at heart...I wanted to tweak their noses and annoy them. So I'm working on the sequel novel, along with two other novellas in the same universe. The only change I'm making is that there will be more of what upsets the bigots, and I couldn't be happier.

Klara Schmitt: I know TikTok often gets a lot of pushback for being a time-suck and/or an echo chamber, but I will credit it to really exposing me to a ton of different voices and perspectives. Anytime I wanted to learn more about what it was like being ADHD or Ace or even what experiencing seizures might feel like, I search it and watch videos exploring peoples' lived experiences and listen to their thoughts. I am also grateful to the resource https://www.tumblr.com/writingwithcolor, which has helped me tremendously.

In high school I took a course Teaching Tolerance through a homeschool co-op, which I believe has since been renamed Learning for Justice, but that course really stuck with me. I think that course was perhaps more inline with the first point "encourage understanding and empathy in regard to diversity." I think it's important to have both, to expose folks to diversity, but to also build up empathy for what it's like to live an experience other than your own.

My story actually blends a lot of cultures' folklore with elements of a lot of mainstream religions and I'm trying to do my best to keep it in grays. My main characters might have perspectives of the legitimacy of certain beliefs, but that doesn't mean they are right in their thinking, which will evolve as they continue to be exposed to more people and more context.

In addition to religion, I have two non-profits essentially brokering diversity in pursuit of peace and the right of existence, one of which is international, so I wanted that represented in the makeup of their employees. I try to include people of different races, ethnicities, genders, sexualities, disabilities, etc., but also put them in positions of authority. Perhaps as a woman, who works a corporate job where there aren't a ton of women in leadership roles, I wanted to write what I wish was more readily prevalent. So now I have a lot of women in my book, some questing for honor, some for power, but the variance is in their motivation, not their gender.

The one lesson I learned the hard way though is to definitely find 2-3 sources on name pronunciations that originate outside my own language/country. One chick is stuck with an incorrect pronunciation because I only verified her name once before writing it down phonetically. But then I fell in love with the name and now I can't seem to change it in my head. Oops. Coincidentally, I am really glad I listened to books #2 and #3 of Naomi Novik's Scholomance series, because it allowed me to hear all the international students' names with proper pronunciation and I definitely missed out on reading book #1.

Also, writing accents is a lot harder than I thought and I've spent a lot of time on websites teaching Haitian Creole because I value authenticity. I am still hoping to find some folks who might be able to vet my dialog for the various accents before I publish, because incorporating languages that I don't speak into my writing means I'm much more likely to get it wrong. (See previous paragraph, lol.)

Kay Iscah: I have too many projects on the back burner to react to recent events through fiction.

For readers, it may seem to ramp up as I go along. For me, it was always part of the plan. Though I think of it more as variety than highlighting marginalization. Phillip is essentially a nerd stuck in the life of a medieval peasant, so he's marginalized in his society. Meanwhile, the princess is neurodivergent (on the psychopathy spectrum) but there's no language for that in a medieval setting, so I just hint at it with things like "thought more than she felt". The sorceress lives a marginal existence as the only practicing magic user in the country, and she has a magical ability that was a bit of a disability in her youth. The prince has a bizarre family situation... so there are many ways to be an outsider.

A lot of my unpublished protagonists are outsiders or marginalized in some way, but that may be more subtle with some characters than others. I do think it's important to see demographics as a trait of a character and not the whole character.

Sean Taylor: I'm ramping up. Like Kamala said, we're not backing down. The marginalized are going to face a lot of troubles in the years to come, and I like to think that as a writer, I can at least open an eye onto that world and those troubles and the ones who benefit from their hardships. 

 What authors do you recommend who are doing a commendable job of highlighting this kind of diversity in their work?

John Anthony Chihak Soltero: Sophie Campbell does an amazing job in her work on Wet Moon. She features great character development, stories and artwork, while also giving voice to Queer characters, those with disabilities and various races and body types.

Kay Iscah: My reading is all over the place, but I'm reading a lot of dead authors and older books at the moment. I think readers need to put in some of the effort and just try new authors and genres. There's so much pressure on authors to build a "brand" that individual authors may stick to one type of issue rather trying to hit all of them. I watch a lot of Asian media and have started dipping my toe into some Nollywood series. The internet has made the world far more accessible to us. Instead of expecting an Irish author to highlight African stories, I think it's better for readers to try out African authors.

Lot of my personal focus is fairytales and folklore. So I'm constantly (if slowly) trying to expand my imagination by reading the mythologies of different cultures.

Marginalization is a concept where setting is very important, and anyone tackling the issue should be very aware there's a difference between being the only one of something in the city, and a city full of people like your character. Same character, different level of marginalization because the setting changed. Both place and time. Being a witch in London in 1524 and being a witch in London in 2024 are completely different experiences.

Sean Taylor: I think if you look past the works of more old, white dudes like me and read more LGBTQIA+, POC, refuge, and international writers, you'll find all the stories you could ever find. Sure, that means you may read fewer folks like me, and that'll hurt my wallet, but I'd rather you learn to be a more diverse thinker and more active in fighting for marginal peoples. Heather Plett has a wonder article about this called Centring Marginalized Voices and De-Colonizing My Bookshelf that is well worth checking out. 

A lot of my own interest in reading marginalized voice comes from being an American Lit/Comp teacher. As I mentioned in my response to question #1, I think back to the poems of Langston Hughes writing about being Black in a White United States, Kate Chopin writing about being little more than property in a patriarchal world, and Oscar Wilde, who had to hide (though clearly not very well - 😏) his homosexuality in metaphor and symbolism in his fiction. 

Connor Alexander, who replied above, is a board creator creating amazing RPGs and board games based on marginalized groups. 

Best Dialog Advice You Ever Received

 

I posted an open question on my various social profiles. I asked this: "What's the best advice you ever got for writing dialog?" Here are the results. 

Josh Nealis: Dialogue is tough. Generally, on my first draft, the dialogue is more or less kind of a placeholder for kind of what I want the character to say. Once the entire story is written and I know the Arc of the character on the second and third passes you can go back and fix the dialogue to Trend in the way you want it to. Always think about what the character is trying to accomplish in that moment or 

Anthony Taylor: This: ", he said."

Cully Perlman: Stick as best as you can to “he said” and “she said” for dialogue tags. Be sparse with anything else. Especially adverbs.

Ef Deal: Tags are not always necessary. Intersperse dialogue with action instead.

Shannon Luchies: Say it aloud. If it sounds wrong, rethink it.

Lucy Blue: If you’re not sure, try reading it out loud. Would you say it? If somebody said it to you, would it get the reaction you intended? Remember, people tend not to talk in long, complex sentences even when they “monologue.” You ain’t Shakespeare; you’re writing conversation, not poetry. Dialogue is my favorite thing to write; it comes most easily to me. It’s descriptions that hang me up.

Susan H. Roddey: It should always sound natural when spoken aloud.

Lainey Kennedy: Read it out loud. You will catch more weirdness from hearing it than reading it on the page.

Devin Hylton: Dialogue is not actual conversation.

David Wright: Find the rhythm in the speech. Don't overburden with tags. Let word choice be governed by character and setting.

John Morgan Neal: As has been said by many already, read it aloud. But I would add to try and read in character. That way avoids all characters 'sounding ' the same.

Angela Hope: Death to adverbs!! (via Stephen King)

John French: (from my high school freshman English class) When writing dialogue, the rules of grammar do not have to be strictly followed.

Jessica Hodges: To help the verbal exchange between characters feel more organic, replace repetitive dialogue tags with action beats.

Jesse Baruffi: Don't spell words differently based on characters' accents. Let word choice make their accents come out.

Characters should not be constantly setting each other up for clever wordplay. Such things occasionally happen, but it is best when it's surprising, and doesn't feel like the author's hand at work.

If all the characters sound the same, it's your voice, not theirs.

Let your characters listen poorly and talk past each other, so only the reader often hears them.

Characters, even honest ones, should usually hold back their feelings and intentions as much as they can until there's no choice but to reveal them.

Also, don't have the characters tell each other things the audience already knows.

Kay Iscah: I disagree with this to a point. Some authors do a fantastic job of conveying accent with dialogue, and it creates a richer experience. But it requires really knowing and understanding the accent.

Don't use an accent to mock a character, but there is a place for regional flavor. I think A Secret Garden is a book in which this works well. But it is extra grating if done badly, so if the accent is slight or unimportant to the story, probably best not to try to imitate it.

I used a very heavy, almost unintelligible accent for one of my fantasy novels, but it was done with purpose, not to mock anyone. But I had to craft rules for it to keep it consistent.

Listen to how people speak, but dialogue can be the characters saying the things you wish you had said an hour later. Unless you need to show nervousness, minimize the "um" and rambles that often come in real conversation. And this does vary a bit by genre, so understand if you're writing an adventure or screenplay dialogue should be very tight. If you're doing a leisurely slice-of-life novel, then you can meander more.

Taylor Mosbey: Read more Mark Twain.

Anna Salazar: I go to a coffee shop and eavesdrop.

Gordon Dymowski: Make a point of focusing on how a person speaks - what vocabulary are they using? Is that person's vocal rhythm unique? Thinking of dialogue like music is one of my key go-to strategies when writing dialogue.

Ali Marceau: Write the conversation that's in your head first...actions and reactions will come to you the more you "study the lines" and you're less likely to forget the feelings of the scene.

Bobby Nash: Walk around the house reading dialogue aloud.

Scott Rogers: Give each character their own way of sayin’ something so their personality comes through. Read what you have written aloud after you have written it.

Ruth de Jauregui: Read it out loud in the cadence and accents of your characters. Words too. So if the Latino across the street says oh my god, it’s in Spanish, then continues in English with his accent. And words spelled differently to mimic the accent, ok, maybe sometimes, but if the book is filled with it, it’s hard to edit and honestly distracts from the story.

Robby Hilliard: Read it out loud. Listen to someone else read it out loud.

Eliseu Gouveia: I usually use movie actors as proxies. I had a dialogue scene where a guy was trying to convince his pissed-off girlfriend to quit smoking. So, in my mind, I projected The Shoveler (Mistery Men) for the guy role, and Morticia Addams/Anjelica Huston as the girlfriend. The results were... unexpected. 😊

John Hartness: Read David Mamet.

Jessica Nettles: Watch Aaron Sorken shows. Read Neal Simon. Listen to real conversations and language. Understand that every person has their own language music and patter.

Nancy Hansen: If I can see the character in my mind's eye, I'll figure out the background, and then the dialogue comes more naturally. Sometimes I'll hunt for the right look online, and either find it in a celebrity or other recognizable person, or maybe some random picture I stumble across. Ethnicity and local/period slang and phrasing will figure in, but as Ruth said, in small doses. Like adding spice to a dish, it gets overwhelming if you add too much. For example, in the Jezebel Johnston pirate series, which takes place in the mid/late 1600s I decided from the outset to not use the 'thees and thous' sort of parlance that was popular in the day. It's hard to do well and gets tiresome to read after a while. I do my share of pirate talk though, just not the theatrical stuff. I also dump in the occasional phrase in French, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, etc to remind readers that seafaring was a melting pot affair.

Charles Santino: Less is more. Clever is bad.

Jamais Jochim: Be passionate.

Allen Hammack: Ninety-nine percent of dialog lines should use "said." The very rare substitution should emphasize something important.

Michael McIlvain: Keep it understandable. Eliminate any possible question in the reader’s mind.

Pj Lozito: Don't let any character give a speech...

B. Clay Moore: Don't work to emulate the way people "actually speak." Work to make the way your characters speak seem believable. Also, dialogue comes easily for me once I can "hear" a character's voice in my head. That comes from *knowing* who my characters are. Everything follows from there.

Michael Woods: Dialogue isn't what they say, but how they say it.

Sorella Smith: Writing dialogue and how you tag it are not the same thing. for me, simply saying 'said' can often understate the intent of the dialogue. For others, adding a descriptor devalues the dialogue, gives too much weight to the narrative. Figuring that balance out is separate from writing good dialogue. Dialogue should be suited to the character. Dialogue isn't what should define the character, but it should inform the character and everything about the character should inform it.

Hilaire C Smith: Not really advice for writing so much as personal insight... I learned I am a wordy b**** 😂 and use $5 words regularly... the "would YOU say it like that" doesn't help me. 😂

Also, most of my characters are Southern precisely because I cannot excise my Southern roots from my grammar/vocabulary. Along those lines, some advice: avoid regional dialects as it can be done badly and come off as bigoted if badly done. Ie, it's fine to toss in a "y'all," but making a character sound like Boomhauer might not go over well and will be tiresome to read.

Aaron Rosenberg: Listen to how people speak. Hear your characters speak in your head. Read what they say out loud. Then go listen to people more. 

James P. Nettles III: I’ve been known to dictate, poorly acting out the character voices to get the first draft. And also, listen to old radio shows - very tight dialogue.

James Tuck: if you are having a conversation between two people, once you establish who's talking trust your audience to keep up. You do not have to he said she said that shit all the way down the page.

Jen Mulvihill: I listen to other people interact in dialogue and take note of how they communicate then I play it out in my head with my dialogue then I listen to what I have written in audio playback.

Shannon Murphy: Don't worry about grammar. Nobody speaks in perfect grammar. Write dialog the way people actually speak. That is, if your book is contemporary. If you're writing of another time, you'll have to research how they spoke then. No one in Victorian England is going to say, "Hey, dude!"

The Green-Eyed Monster: A Writer Roundtable

We've all seen the meme. It's the standard visual for jealousy now, it seems. A man and a woman are walking and the guy looks back at another woman, an action that causes the woman he's with to cast them both a sidelong glance (or glare). But what about jealousy in regard to our writing careers. Or maybe it's just plain envy. I wanted to know, so I asked a few folks who have been in that life of words for a while what they thought. 

Do you get jealous of the success of other writers you know? How do you deal with that? How do you avoid the comparison trap? 

Elizabeth Donald: Another writer’s success does not diminish my success, my accomplishments, or my potential for either. There isn’t a finite quantity of success to go around; it’s not pie. When my writer friends have a great new contract, a stellar review, major sales, etc. I am happy for them. I know they have worked very hard to get where they are, as I do, and I have faith that one day my hard work will be rewarded as theirs was. I find it distasteful when I see a writer complaining about someone else’s success, or that they don’t understand why it hasn’t happened for them yet. Is it so hard to simply be happy for someone else’s good fortune?

I remember something Frank Fradella said once when we were holding a Literary Underworld panel: that when many authors support each other and provide an artistic community for each other, the work is inevitably better. I am mangling what he said, but he brought up the Lost Generation of writers like Hemingway and Fitzgerald bashing around Paris together in the 1920s. And he wasn’t arguing that we were all incipient Hemingways and Fitzgeralds, but more that their natural talent was enhanced by being in community with others. (Not that Hemingway is a great example of lack of competitiveness, be that as it may.) It’s one of the reasons the Literary Underworld exists; to help authors support each other and help each other succeed. Jealousy, competitiveness, resentfulness… None of these things make any sense to me. They’re counterproductive to the goals of art, and they eat away at the soul.

Ef Deal: Another writer's success means people are still reading and books are still important. I feel confident there will be readers for what I write, and I say huzzah to all.

Just one thing more: I set a modest goal for myself when I was very young (9) that I would publish in Fantasy & Science Fiction and I would publish a novel. I've done both, and I'm still writing and publishing short stories and I have at least a few more novels to put out there, so I don't feel any reason to be jealous of someone else. Would I like to be #1 on some list? Sure. Would I like to win some obscure or famous award? Absolutely. Will it change anything about my writing? Not likely.

Susan H. Roddey: For me, it's not "jealousy" so much as a feeling of inadequacy. It's Imposter Syndrome, and thanks to being a card-carrying member of the Gifted Kid Burnout clique, I'm exceedingly hard on myself for reasons that have nothing at all to do with other people. Even when I do experience success, I'm always looking for the storm cloud to block the silver lining. Success for others, though... I'm 100 percent here for it and will be the biggest cheerleader anyone has seen. I WANT my friends and colleagues to do well.

Relevant aside: This weekend Misty Massey won an award that we were both nominated for, and I am so ridiculously happy for her that I could burst. Am I disappointed that I didn't win? Eh, kinda. Or I was for a whole quarter of a second. I know she absolutely deserved to win though, and we still have cause to celebrate.

Bobby Nash: Another writer's success doesn't make me jealous. I'm thrilled to see others succeed.

HC Playa: Generally I am inspired by other's success....even when that success doesn't particularly seem warranted. Say a work isn't really that good. We can all point to well known titles that hit it big and got movies, etc, but they are at best mediocre, sometimes downright trash. It can be easy to play the 'why not me' game, but rather than fall into that trap, it's better to say "Well, if they found success, so can I. I simply have to keep writing."

For the vast majority of writers, it's a long game; intermittent success amid many rejections. I focus not on comparing myself to other writers, because that too is an easy trap to fall into and self-sabotage, but on the fact that the feedback I have gotten from my stories is overwhelmingly positive. People enjoy the stories. No, I haven't hit it big, but I am doing my job well--I am writing stories that others enjoy. All the rest is luck.

Alan J. Porter: Jealousy doesn’t really enter the equation. I’m always happy to see others succeed - especially if it’s someone I know. And seeing other writers succeed is always an inspiration to keep pushing on. 

An editor told me early on not to make comparisons as no one else can write the books/stories I write the way I write them. - One of the best pieces of advice I’ve had.

H. David Blalock: As print books become scarcer, magazines go online, and AIs become authors, it's hard to be jealous of anything coming out today. I'm just grateful there are a few human beings left actually writing and not depending on AI or ghostwriters to flesh out their ideas. Kudos to the actual creators. More power to them.

John Linwood Grant: I go down into the cellar again, and trawl through my collection of other writers' hair, toenail clippings, and general bodily detritus - until I find the right bits for my next set of clever little clay dollies. 🙂

Sean Taylor: For me, it gets down to what I see as the difference between envy and jealousy. Jealousy for me is when I want someone else's stuff and I don't want them to have it. Envy is when I want to achieve the same kind of things. For example, when I was writing for Gene Simmons for IDW, I tried and tried to parlay that into a new gig for when that one was over. But it didn't happen. I got a few invites to pitch for everything from Jem and the Holograms to Transformers, but either the line was going to an author that fit the demographic better and was more well known, or the whole license was moving to another publisher. So, when I failed, and then I saw folks I had worked with before move into major gigs like TMNT, Ghostbusters, Godzilla, and New Warriors, I got frustrated. Sure, I was envious and I wanted to understand why and how they could translate one gig into something bigger and I hadn't been able to. But in the end, it pushed me to keep trying, sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding. And yes, I was incredibly happy for those friends to succeed at bigger gigs, but I could be happy for them and a little envious too, couldn't I?

Krystal Rollins: I'm not jealous of others' success. I applaud them. Just makes me work harder.

Josh Nealis: I always say there's good jealousy and bad jealousy. Bad jealousy is obviously being mad that somebody else is succeeding where you have not. Good jealousy is the same thing except for you understand that it's likely they deserve what they've received, and you be happy for them, but you turn that jealousy into motivation and push yourself harder.

Brian K Morris: It's been a long time since I compared my skills or success (or lack thereof) to any other writer's. It's just not a productive use of my time or energy.

When my friends succeed, I find it a cause to celebrate. Their accomplishments make me work harder so when they move up, I still can justify my presence at the table with them.

James Tuck: I love seeing writers I know succeed at this weird wonky gig we all chose. I hope every one of them kicks ass!

Ideal Work Environments

Whether it's a special desk in a locked office or a noisy coffee house and a pair of noise-canceling headphones, we all have our preferred environments when we sit down to write. But often the difference between our practical workspace and our ideal workspace can be vast. So, this week we turn our attention to our ideal and practical writing environments most conducive to our work. 

What is your typical writing environment when working? What do you do to make it as ideal as possible for your output?

Michael Dean Jackson: Lately the only things that seems to get me writing and stay at it until I am finished is a deadline. That, solitude and quiet. No music, no talk. Just as close to silence as I can get.

Paul McNamee: In my home office with soundtracks playing to set the mood.

Davide Mana: I've my PC in a very crowded room that was supposed to be the house library, but it's more like a big book depot right now. I wish I had a more comfy chair, but it's okay.

Eric Wirsing: My typical work environment is a minimalist desk at home with a laptop and tablet with speech to text. I fix myself two beverages at the start of the day -- one glass of iced tea and the other iced coffee.

Tamara Lowery: I've been writing during work breaks and downtime for well over a decade. At home, there are too many legitimate demands for my attention to get any writing or editing done. I have to nearly DEMAND time to work on anything book-related at home. I LOVE having Word on my phone.

Christopher Hobson: I set up my environment to be as much like the setting of the story as possible. Lighting is a major factor. I also have a cork board with pictures for character reference and environments. And finally “my rock,” a small statue or figure that I look to as an anchor.I also have a unique set of skills that allows me to paint and animate clips to help me see what’s in my mind.

Robert McDonald: Typical is sitting on the couch after the kids go to bed or in bed next to my wife.

James Palmer: I need relative quiet. Those folks who write in a Starbucks or a busy coworking space astound me. I get most of my writing done at work on my lunch break, with just a closed door and my laptop.

Angela Hope: I work at my desk, with a real computer (not a laptop), no music, just quiet. Since I am an administrator by trade, my desk is my 100 percent workspace. I think that having a dedicated workspace is key. Since I work with numbers most of the time when not blogging, I tend to not play music, which distracts me. When I am writing for my blog, I consider it work, therefore, my workspace is where I do it. For me, a quiet, controlled space is best.

Sean Taylor: I tend to write in many different environments, from at the local coffee shop to sitting at my kitchen table to my desk in the "office" (it doesn't have walls so it's not really an "office" to me). Sometimes even I'll sit on my couch, but I can't write too long that way because of the way I have to lean over and how that makes my old man back start to hurt. 

Josh Nealis: More often than not I'm sitting on my couch pecking away while the TV is on in my kid is running around doing whatever. And honestly ideally, I've been doing it that way so long I don't really know any other way.

Michael McIlvain: A quiet place. Preferably with few people around.

David Wright: My typical set up is on the couch with the little recliner section kicked back. I get all settled in with a large lapdesk with plenty of room for my laptop and forearms. I will find my favorite YouTube channels of either low-fi Chill Hop or Lord of the Rings ambient sounds and put in my earbuds. This is just to block out the rest of the world without grabbing my attention. And I'm golden. I use Scrivener and on my best days I've already written out "description summaries" of each scene (written as if I'm describing a part of a movie to a friend). If so, this helps me start producing finished scenes with minimal-to-zero mental ramp up time to figure out what I need to be doing. This scenario is my ideal and when I am at my most productive. 

Sean Ellis: I have a usual cafe where I write 5 plus days a week, for 1-2 hours a day. Sometimes it’s problematic because I know a lot of people who go there, but that’s what makes it fun. Headphones on, listening to music and writing.

Larry Young: I can write anywhere but it has to be 100 percent quiet. A mouse farting two houses away will distract me for an hour. I don’t want real people intruding on my made up people; it’s just rude.

B. Clay Moore: My desk in my office, a massive instrumental Spotify mix playing loudly behind me. Preferably alone in the house. 

Aaron Rosenberg: I USED to write at my desk, which is in the back corner of our family room in the basement. Fairly quiet, decent setup. But since lockdown last year I've had to work remotely from there and couldn't write in the same spot (needed to get up and move around once the workday was done). Now I write on my laptop in our living room instead. We have recliner couches and the corner by the front wall is mine so I sit there, recline it enough to stretch my legs out in front of me, set the laptop on my lap, and work there. I have noise-canceling headphones for when I need them, and an instrumentals playlist. Works fairly well--I've done four novels there, along with several novellas and a handful of short stories.

Chris Burke: Brainstorming usually happens with a notebook and pen with dated entries. Sometimes fully formed ideas come out of this. Better is sitting at my desktop when the house is quiet where I can type to my heart’s delight. I can also do this during lunch at work with the flash drive hanging around my neck. 

John French: I "write" all the time, thinking and planning stories. Sometimes I even remember what I thought about. When I do sit down to put words on the screen (pen to paper no longer applies) it's at a desktop computer in the basement. I'm alone, no music, no TV in the background, just me listening to the voices in my head. I can't write if there's someone in the basement with me.

Alan J. Porter: I have two distinct writing environments. When I’m working on non-fiction I need to be in my office with my reference material and books around me. But no music or background noise. - Conversely, when I’m writing fiction I’m most productive in a public space with background chatter as “white noise.” I do most fiction work when traveling- writing on the plane, or in coffee shops or the quiet corner of a pub or restaurant.

Bobby Nash: I write at the desk in my office surrounded by clutter, comics, books, and collectibles. Is it ideal? Maybe. I don't know.

John Morgan Neal: I don't have one and I know it hurts my production. I want my big ol' military desk to be that but that has been problematic. I have pain and comfort issues.

Ed Erdelac: I write absolutely anywhere whenever I have the time. I've written sprawled on the living room floor as my kids watch Amazing World of Gumball, I've written on my bed, on the apartment stairs, in my van, at my desk on break at work.

Jason Bullock: It has to be at my work desk where I can let my fingers fly across the keyboard. I also will write excerpts of stories, scenes and chapters in small notebooks from the Dollar Tree. I then make notations in the main draft or script on the computer the labeled books or tear out pages to keep in my main draft hardcopy notebook.

I seem to thrive in writing by filling my background with the noise of an all too familiar movie or soundtrack to soothe my subconscious mind. This frees my frontal cortex up to plow the furrows of my story.

Bill Friday: I don’t want to return to my LAST successful writing space. That was a warehouse, on graveyard shift, alone, feeling like a cross between fictional characters (Mark Whatney and Jack Torrance to be exact). I have a new writing space beginning at the beginning of next month, renting a room with wood-paneled walls that make it feel like a chalet… without the forest. We’ll see how it goes.

Joann Maria: I can get a lot done in a quiet corner at the public libray

Gordon Dymowski: My preferred writing space is a section of my living room with laptop and/or pen and paper. I try to reduce the number of distractions: I use the Stay Focusd extension to block social media, I may have soft music in the background, but otherwise my writing environment is relatively stress free. (Another option - the Walker branch of Chicago Public Library, which allows me to have a long, contemplative walk before I sit down and start to write.

What would be your ideal writing environment for getting the most (and best) work done? And I mean really get work done, so no wild parties in Ibiza or men in loin clothes feeding you grapes on an isolated beach, please. 

Davide Mana: I prefer to work in silence, or have music in the background - possibly something that will work as a soundtrack for what I'm writing. Instrumental music, preferably, or I'd get distracted listening to the lyrics. And this is it, and it is my ideal environment. It's not very good for taking "the writer in his studio" photos, but I am here to write, not to be photographed, so it's fine.

Eric Wirsing: The ideal writing environment is just what I have now -- sufficient food and drink, a space to go for a walk in suburbia, and internet access for research (I'm boring, I know).

Robert McDonald: Ideal would be a home office where I could both have a drink and cigar, play some music, and not be interrupted.

Jason Bullock: My ideal working environment is and will always be lakeside near shoals or waterfalls in a mountain-esque scene. Fresh air, serenity, and the high bombardment of negative ions from the water hitting the rocks and lakes makes the human brain balance in harmony. I know that sounds hokey but it has beem scientifically proven that all atoms vibrate. Since we are a compilation of molecules of atomic nature we too vibrate on that frequency. Our emotions change the amplitude of that frequency whether happy, sad, focused, or diffused. The natural world can be connected by each of us to enhance our mental and physical productivity. Sorry if this answer was a bit verbose.

James Palmer: My ideal space is an office with my bookshelves, artwork and Funko Pops, which is my setup at home.⁠

David Wright: The only way my ideal would be different from my typical set up is if I have no other obligations for the day and no one making demands of me. But even a wholly dedicated writing day requires exercise breaks. I'll go workout or run to not only work out the kinks but also brainstorm or let my subconscious wrestle with a plot issue.

B. Clay Moore: I'd like to build a small office behind the house for maximum isolation. That would be my ideal circumstance. The problem is always interruption. No one understands how completely derailing even the smallest interruption can be.

Aaron Rosenberg: I'd be happy to switch back to my desk, with my Aeron chair and dual monitors and proper mouse. What would be nice, though, is to be upstairs with it, where I can have a window open on nice days and get air and sunlight and a breeze. Ideally in the back of the house, so as not to get distracted by passing cars, neighbors, mailmen, etc.

Chris Burke: I don’t know what would make it better. I use the Internet more than it distracts me so I wouldn’t want to be someplace away from it..

Alan J. Porter: I’m not sure I have a theoretical writing environment as I find writing in different locations part of what inspires me.

Bobby Nash: I love writing outside on my back porch. I have a swing and take a table out there. The downside of this is that I live in Georgia so it's either too blasted hot and humid outside (like today) or too cold. I take advantage of that week of Spring we get though.

Ed Erdelac: My ideal place is anywhere quiet. I miss my apartment in Chicago when I lived basically alone and could sit at a desk, but I write wherever I have to.

Gordon Dymowski: Ideally, I would love to have my own private writing office close to home. Home often brings several distractions (caring for a sick mom doesn't help), but I don't want to invest huge amounts of time commuting to a coworking space. Give me a small room with a desk, working Wi-Fi, and a coffee pot, and I'll be good to go.

Sean Taylor: I have two ideals. One is at my MeMe's house in South Georgia. It has not internet, and I simply set up in the front bedroom or on the front porch and write and watch the cars drive by. The other is a home office set up. In that ideal home office, it would have walls and be big enough for me to have my library in it too, along with my music equipment for recording and my record player.